FTBM Podcast Ep308: What High-Performing Kids Need That Parents Often Miss

Dr. Pete: [00:00:00] most of the stuff that we do is like a hamster on a wheel. Like the, like the elliptical, for example. Right? Mom, mom, if you're on the elliptical right now, you're literally going nowhere, you know? Whereas if you're sitting on the cushion, also not going anywhere, but you're training your brain, 'cause it's with intention. It's the on purpose piece that's key. 

Vanessa: You are listening to the Free to Be Mindful podcast, where busy moms get practical tips and real talk conversations to find calm joy in a little more breathing room in everyday life. I'm Vanessa Licensed therapist, mom, coach, and a mom to a tween and toddler. Each week we get honest about motherhood and mindset helping you live with more presence, less pressure without losing your well, you know.

Here we go.

Hello and welcome to the Free To Be Mindful Podcast. I hope that you're feeling good, looking good and doing better in this world than you were yesterday. I am very excited for our guest today because he is a [00:01:00] personal friend of mine. You'll hear me call him Pete, he is Dr. Peter Economou, a licensed psychologist, an assistant professor at Rutgers University, a board certified in cognitive and behavioral therapy, a psychologist, author, performance coach, Zen teacher. What doesn't he do? And his fun fact is amazing. Amazing.

He integrates Western Behavioral Science and Wellness with Eastern Spirituality to cultivate peace and joy in those he works with and what he studies.

You'll see that he really believes in the work that he shares, in the works that he teaches, and he does it in such a way where it's genuine and you see full joy and passion in what he does.

Hope you enjoy the episode as much as I did. 

Pete, welcome to the Free To Be Mindful Podcast. I'm so glad to have you with us today. 

Dr. Pete: We finally made it. 

 Yay. Now folks who are listening and watching, Pete is great to listen to and to look at, and we've been planning this for [00:02:00] at least three years. Three years in the making or so. But we're here.

Dr. Pete: We finally did it. Thank you so much for having me. 

Vanessa: My pleasure. And you just heard a lot about Pete in the intro, but Pete, fill us in with a fun fact. 

Dr. Pete: Okay, well, where it started. No, I'm just kidding. I, you know, start, start at birth.

Fun fact is that I, I swam competitively. And that's sort of probably what led to sort of this mindfulness stuff. Some of this like high performance stuff. I competed Olympic trials. I was recently inducted into my high school hall of fame. I'm in my University Hall of Fame. So someone is recognizing that Olympic sports like swimmers, because the other fun fact is swimmers were only cool every four years.

Uh Oh 

Vanessa: wow. 

Dr. Pete: Right. Because the Olympics. But otherwise we were like often bullied 'cause we had to wear Speedos. 

Vanessa: That is pretty funny. Pretty funny. But you all pretty much look great in the Speedos all the time. 

Dr. Pete: Well, I joke and say I was the only person at Olympic trials who didn't have an eight pack. Uh, so, 

Vanessa: so funny.

Maybe just a four or six somewhere there. 

Dr. Pete: Yeah. [00:03:00]

Vanessa: I love it and obviously you guys hear us say Pete and Vanessa, but he is Dr. Peter Economou. We very, very, world renowned and has lots of things going for him, so we just heard that. That is an amazing, fun fact because I just recently learned that, and now I kind of, the dots connect. It all makes sense as far as your work with athletes and in sports psychologies and all of the different things that you do, which is really amazing. 

Dr. Pete: Yeah, we like to keep ourselves busy in high performance. Uh, as you do too. So, uh, one of the other things we talked about, if, can I share a story about a, a recent thing Please do. Where I sort of yelled at you. Do you remember? 

Vanessa: Yes. Go ahead. 

Dr. Pete: Alright. So I yelled at Vanessa because she gave this gorgeous speech 'cause she got this amazing award that she was absolutely deserving of. And, I got to record the video, but I was really nervous recording it because it was on her phone and she was like, do you have a steady hand?

That's what she said right before she gave me the phone, and I was so nervous thinking, I don't know if I do, and, and if it's a long speech, I won't because, uh, uh.

But one of the [00:04:00] things she said is that she's around all these doctors and she only recently felt like she belonged. And I was really mad at her for that because, uh, you know, titles and all this other stuff doesn't matter. None of it matters. And it's the human experience, the energy, and connection, and connectability that matters. And you have all of that. And then some. 

Vanessa: Thank you. Thank you. I very much appreciate it and right back at you. So I really, really appreciate you and thank you for yelling me. 'cause sometimes we all do need that, that wake up call like, Hey, you're here. You're here and you got it. Yeah. 

Dr. Pete: Yes. 

Vanessa: Yeah. So you do so many amazing things and obviously a lot of your work is in mindfulness. So Yeah. Can you talk to us about that connection? Because many people, I think from the other side of the television, or perhaps from moms on the bleachers, don't quite understand how that even ties in to sports.

Dr. Pete: Yeah. It's, it's, I love that you asked it that way because a, a lot of athletes don't either. They're like, wait, you want me to do less? You know, and I'm like, well, yeah. You know, what if [00:05:00] doing less and self-care and mindfulness is actually a part of high performance rather than feeling like it's lazy and the other person is getting more out of me.

So that's, that's the connection. The connection is, most of the stuff that we do is like a hamster on a wheel. Like the, like the elliptical, for example. Right? Mom, mom, if you're on the elliptical right now, you're literally going nowhere, you know? You're, you are it, you're stationary. But if you can do like yoga or like a hike where you're actually, you know, forced to be slow, forced to be with yourself, notice what's going on.

I had a guest on my show recently talk about the bully thoughts. I like that. I think you'll like that too. You know, our thoughts bully us. We call it the inner critic and high performers have this like really loud inner critic. Yes. Well, mindfulness is a tool to lower the volume. Maybe slows down the record player, slows down the cadence of the thoughts, and then it lowers the volume of them as well.

So that's the connection. And then lastly, what I'll say is, so if mom's on the bleacher right now listening, the other thing I say to athletes is - [00:06:00] and, and they realize this- they're, no one can heckle you worse than yourself. So if you are a sports fan and you're at the bleachers, someone's heckling your kid and you wanna like, look, you want to, you wanna punch them, right? But that, but that heckler is not nearly as bad as what's going on inside your kid's head or the athlete's head. 

Vanessa: Absolutely. And I think we need to roll it back for a second and even talk about what mindfulness is because I know you have a space, and you have your, all of your zen things going on, and you, I know that even as an athlete you're moving, but you also sit still to practice mindfulness. Yeah. So talk to me about the way that you integrate it in your own life, i'll tell you mine, and then we'll go back to the sports. 

Dr. Pete: So mindfulness is on purpose in the present moment and without judgment. And it could be any of the things I just said that are active. But what I love is meditation. And so that's the zen practice that you talked about.

I did recently open up the Cornerstone Meditation Center. Which is really funny. We sat last night and one of my colleague friends was like, this is just, you know, we're building a [00:07:00] zendo in a sangha. And I was like, yeah, but like, who cares? You know, like, you know, if people show up, cool. I'm like, this is for us.

And she was like, I really hope I could arrive there one day. You know? Because it's, it is just about, it is about community. But it, you build that they will come. And I'm blessed to be able to do that. You know, I, I, I acknowledge the hard work and privilege that it took to get to this.

But sitting still in mindfulness, so the way I think about it is mindfulness is this umbrella. There's lots of different ways that you can do it. You can color, you can paint, you can hike, you can have a difficult conversation. Uh, you can sit still and meditate. You know, it's just one of the tools to get there. And so, in Zen we do a lot of stillness and a lot of silent meditation.

We typically wanna do it at sunrise and sunset. I sit for about 30 to 60 minutes a day at each sitting. And so, you know, it, it is, it's a commitment, but it's one of the only things that can actually train your brain. 

Vanessa: Hmm. 

Dr. Pete: That's why I was, talking negatively about the elliptical because you're not really training your brain, you know, you're just literally moving and not [00:08:00] going anywhere. Whereas if you're sitting on the cushion, also not going anywhere, but you're training your brain, 'cause it's with intention. It's the on purpose piece that's key. 

Vanessa: I love your definition of mindfulness because I define it similarly, but I say paying attention to the right here, right now with kindness and with curiosity because, love it the kids like that, right? And then they, they start talking about that, and I love how that relates to the bully thoughts, so I'm definitely stealing that from you.

However, working with moms and even working with kids- asking them to sit for 30 and 60 minutes when they have a to-do list a mile long, which I know that you do too. Yeah. But sometimes, like my almost 2-year-old doesn't allow me to sit for 30 or 60 minutes. So what I really preach is mindful living, is integrating mindfulness and even active meditation in your everyday life so that you are here and you're paying attention to the things that you're doing, if you don't have that 30 minutes, or even sometimes the three minutes or three seconds to sit, but that you're being present in everything you do, [00:09:00] especially for moms and their kids. What do you think about that? 

Dr. Pete: I love it, and, and I would agree with it, wholeheartedly. It doesn't have to be what- I was just sharing what I do, but yes, I'll start with like, just brush your teeth, you know? Right.

So I'm gonna give you, I'll give you listeners three gems. Just brush your teeth. So when you brush your teeth, next, you do it twice a day. Just brush your teeth. Don't think about, you know, when you notice that you're thinking about a fight you have with a coworker, or you're worried about what you have to make for dinner, or what you're gonna make for breakfast, or your mother-in-law's coming over the next day, just brush your teeth.

You know, and listen to the water, smell. Think about where the toothpaste came from, where did that actually come from? You know, and so that might sound like a hippie, but that's okay.

Moms or parents bedtime. I had clients once that, you know, bedtime is a horror, especially as you get into like toddler and child stages.

Vanessa: Yes, yes. 

Dr. Pete: They would just meditate in the room. Let the kids do whatever they do, be angry, throw a tantrum, and just sit. Now that is really hard for the parent. I recognize that. And imagine the shaping and modeling that you can do for your [00:10:00] child in that moment if you and your partner are able to commit to that together. You know, let's, let's sit for 20 minutes while the kid's throwing a tantrum.

And then last, so adolescents and kids sound ball. So you have a fake ball that you hold and you gotta make a sound as you pass it to each other. I 

Vanessa: love 

Dr. Pete: it. And you, you make a crazy sound like, and you just gotta get outta your body a little bit and just, you know, like, and throw it and pass it to somebody else. And then somebody else has to make a new sound and you just keep passing 

Vanessa: and pass back.

Dr. Pete: Yes. So if we had another guest here, we could throw it to somebody else. So there's ways that you can get creative is my point. Like when we do it, you know, with, with different brains, we have to get creative with how we introduce mindfulness.

Vanessa: I love it, and that is gonna catch the attention for kids, and then parents are gonna be able to do it with them and hopefully, hopefully implement it for themselves. Because that's what I see a lot of parents is they're always giving, giving, giving, giving and they need to take that moment for them so that they don't lose it on their kid, and they can be the best person that they can be for their kids and for themselves. 

Dr. Pete: [00:11:00] Totally. Totally. 

Vanessa: Yeah. So now let's tie that back. I love, love, love those examples and how does the toothpaste get in there? And how does it go out and not in? But anyway, so bringing it back to the sports.

Working with so many kids, and especially the ones that are high performers, whether it be academically or in sports, or as musicians, or performers on stage, that bully thought is really, really, really loud. And I'm sure it may compare to the professional athletes that you work with in and outside of your practice.

So what is it that parents can do to help quiet that thought? And to not bring more to it, because sometimes we think that we're being helpful and we can actually be doing the opposite. 

Dr. Pete: Yeah. Look, there is no book on how to do this parenting thing, so I send you some love and, and I send you some luck if you're doing it because it's not easy. And it's so different today than it was, you know, because of all the other things that we have.[00:12:00]

One of the things that you're running up, if you have a young child right now, is that we don't know how technology is shaping the brain. And I'm, I do talks crap about devices at times. But they're also a really great invention.

So what do you do for it? I mean, it's demons on the boat. So there's a really great act metaphor, which says, demons on the boat. We all have demons. And so we can, those demons could be experiences that we had. 'cause you know, maybe an athlete is remembering when they missed that free throw that, then they didn't, they, they didn't make it to the championship.

Or a child who, you know, pooped their pants during a game and they remember that they're, everyone made fun of them for it. These are all things that we hold onto. Those demons will not affect us. They, they keep us at sea. So if I'm on a boat. And I'm trying to get to shore to dock my boat, those demons will hold us out there. We can also think about that, the bully thoughts.

And so you wanna accept them so you don't wanna avoid them. So if a child is like, oh, I really don't feel good enough. Okay, baby, I hear that you don't think you're good enough. [00:13:00] You know, just encourage it, like bring it up. Because if you try and push it down, you stay at sea. You actually can't make it to dock your boat. And that's what holds us back. That's, that's where we're not living with our values, that's where we're underachieving.

So if I can acknowledge that they're there, don't let them control where the boat goes. That over time will lead to confidence and the volume is almost off. You will always have the inner critic, you will always have bully thoughts. They do not go away ever. But they're like a little murmur and they're annoying versus like actually loud and you can't hear the real thoughts. Yeah. 

Vanessa: Yes. I love that you brought light to that because Yes, the thoughts don't go away. No. But we just learn to kind of quiet them down, and not let them get in the way. And I feel like when we don't acknowledge that, especially in kids, that's when they're like, okay, I'll put it away, put it away. Yeah. And then when we don't acknowledge it, then that boat is gonna tip over in the middle at sea or in the middle of the court. Yes. And then there we see it. 

Dr. Pete: [00:14:00] Yeah. And I, I had a guest on my podcast recently who sold everything and she and her husband after 40 years of marriage are sailing the world. Wow. They were crossing an ocean, took 28 days for one of the oceans to cross. And I was like, that's, she was like, that's not that long. I'm like, what? Like, that's an eternity. 

Vanessa: A lot can happen in 28 days 

Dr. Pete: a lot. And the boat can flip. So that's what, that was where your, that's where my thought went as you said that. But yes, it can flip and you wanna just recognize that those demons are not.

And she has to recognize, you know, that that guest has to recognize those demons. Like they're there. You know, she's in the middle of an ocean in 25 foot waves, like hitting your deck. I don't 

Vanessa: listen, I already told you I don't know how to swim. So that, that brings me some anxiety. 

Dr. Pete: We're gonna fix that. We're fixing that though, right? 

Vanessa: We're gonna work on that and, and lower those bully thoughts. That's right. As they come up really loud.

So when we have our kids, again, whether it be on the stage, on the field, whatever it is that they're doing, or even academically, what advice [00:15:00] do you have for them or for their parents who are trying to help them when they don't think that the 97 is enough? When they don't think that last shot that they made and didn't go in. Yeah, when they don't think that that that's enough, or they think that that's a deciding factor and not the 20 points that they already scored in the game. What do we do in those situations? 

Dr. Pete: We need to find middle path. And middle path is, in some ways, that's really a beautiful way to live.

Drive yourself, motivate yourself. Nothing is ever good enough. Yeah. Okay. That's kind of cool, like that will motivate you, until it doesn't. So it's about finding that line. Because when it crosses over, then you've crossed over into perfectionism and burnout, and then you're underperforming. So it is, it's about middle path.

What I will say, I guess, to your parents listening is they need to practice what they're preaching, you know? Yes. And notice that you're probably trying to live whatever you [00:16:00] regret out through your child. That's just not cool. 'cause I see that a lot in the world of athletics because, you know, I'll have a professional athlete that's stressed about the contract and their parents or somebody in their life is, is encouraging them to sign one way or, and I'm like, well, how many years did they play professional? You know, 

how many agents did they have? How many contracts did they have to negotiate? You don't want to, you know, pivot or, or try and say like, one is better than the other. But it's like, it's perspective. It's perspective to say they, and, and we, you and I as mental health providers, we stay objective.

So I'm always like, look, I'm your sounding board. Like, I have nothing in this. I, I don't get anything else. You know, this is really your decision and I'm gonna help you identify what your decision is. And of course, we'll think about culture in that because there are certain cultures that want to include their family.

You can include your family with boundaries. You know, that's the beautiful piece of compassion that you can do. 

Vanessa: Yes. I love it. So I hope that you all listened out there, moms and dads. And as you were saying that I was [00:17:00] listening to, as I'm enjoying my almost 2-year-old wearing tutu's, twirling around. Yep. A life that really, a dream that I didn't get to live out, but just allowing her to have fun. But also what I heard you say at the beginning is the concept of allowance. Of Yeah, just allowing to be to what is, is and not really put on so much pressure, because they're already living through a lot of that pressure themselves.

Dr. Pete: There is so much pressure, and whether it's the bully thought, whether it's society, whether it is social media, there's enough pressure, you know, we don't need any more. I think, it's the most difficult book to write and read is how to parent. Yeah, and, and so I'm not, by no means am I saying this is I'm an expert or know how to do it.

It's just that can we try and challenge ourselves to, to notice when it's our stuff and not theirs. 

Vanessa: Absolutely. And now I'd love to shift gears just a tiny, tiny bit because I know that you having your athletic background and then the mental health background, but you stay on it. And we talked about this, you know, like really sticking to [00:18:00] your schedule and motivating yourself when the motivation isn't there to live a healthy lifestyle. Not just in meditation and mindfulness, but moving your body and making sure that you make time for you. Because again, that's something that parents usually leave behind.

So how is it that you find motivation to do all the things you do, but also to prioritize your own mental, physical and emotional wellbeing.

Dr. Pete: I mean, it's ODing on that. I think that's what we're talking about. I, I overdose on wellbeing, because that's, I think when you fly, you have to put your mask on first. So your 2-year-old who you adore and would do anything for, you actually have to put your mask on before you put hers on. Because if you don't, then you, you may pass out to not be able to help her.

You need to do that for yourself. So you know, it's very hard as a parent of a working parent, a parent of a young child, to be able to prioritize yourself. A partner maybe, you know, there's that role that also kind of plays into this from time to time. Absolute. Yeah. And so you need to [00:19:00] find balance in all of that.

So it comes back to this balance, it comes back to the middle path. Uh, and if you are not well, you can't be your best version of yourself. And why else are you doing this Then? You know, to, to be the best version that you can be. I kind of say I'm like a one trick pony because I do think all, all roads lead to mindfulness and wellbeing. You know, so even a lot of the executive coaching I do. A lot of times they'll, they'll pair me up with someone who might, you know, have had a medical diagnosis or, you know, might, uh, just be struggling with some kind of physical ailment or things like that, because it's, it's, it's, it's key to performance is making sure that you... i love how you said it, that you know, your physical, uh, emotional wellbeing are all in place.

Vanessa: Absolutely. And I also do think that like mindfulness is at the foundation of every single thing that we do. Yeah. And if we bring awareness to that, then the other pieces level up.

But here's my big asterisk, and I wonder what you think about this. I think I know. Yeah. But let us know. Is that see the foundation, right?

And we're like, okay, so we're gonna go do [00:20:00] this and we're gonna go do that. And there's that middle path that you were talking about. Then we wanna do all of the things at once. Or we wanna do all the things to at at at an excellence level, perhaps when we may not have excellence in us that day to that degree. Or we wanna do things how we did them, this is me talking 20, 30 years ago when perhaps I can't do you know that workout exactly how it looked like back then, but I need to accept where I am now.

And I think that all. Of those things sometimes get in the way for us to accept the what is in the present time. 

Dr. Pete: It's a beautiful asterisk. You will not always be excellent all the time.

There are going to be days where you're like, I just want to sit on the couch and do nothing. You know, thoughts are not facts. If I have a thought that's like, oh, this is like such a waste of my time, or I'm over this, this is, I'm, it's, I'm not getting the outcome that I wanted. That's just a thought. It's not a fact. So observe the thought, let it go.

And it is, it's just about balance. So I do think a lot of stuff, it's why it's such a [00:21:00] beautiful union between zen and mindfulness and psychology, you know, this middle path is like, is brilliant. Just how do I find equanimity? How do I find balance in what I'm doing?

I can't do it all. 'cause it very quickly can cross over the line. So, uh, as long as the house is built sturdily, then you can always redecorate and it's always about just you, you know, and the redecoration can occur over time where you're like, ah, it's want this room at this time, and that room at that time. And just recognizing that the, to the to-do list is gonna be there. There's always gonna be stuff to do. But on, you know. For what? You know, what is this all about? For what you know is the earth is still gonna turn no matter if you get this done or not. 

Vanessa: Yes. I love that you put it in that way because we have to put it in perspective that sometimes we make our stuff so, so big. Yeah. But when we think about the short time that we're here on this earth, what do we want that time to look like? 

Dr. Pete: Because it's, you know, I always say, and I'm blessed at this point in my career, that [00:22:00] most of the people I work with are super healthy. And it's like, we're born and we die.

You know, it's very zen, uh, and, and most of the people I work with would be fine without coming to see me. 'cause they would get through birth, they would get to death, and they would be successful and kind of have all the things that they want. But you could impact the, the quality between birth and death. And that's what mindfulness can do. Yes. Yeah. 

Vanessa: Beautiful segue into my signature question. If you could be remembered for anything, what would it be? 

Dr. Pete: Uh, for not having a six pack. Woo. 

Vanessa: I love it. 

Dr. Pete: No, I, we, I, we always have this, uh, picture of my relay in college and we had just won some tournament, or, I don't know, I, I, I don't remember what, maybe the Big East or something. And everyone was jacked and, and okay, I was fit, but I was not jacked. I was never jacked. I always just had like, whatever. Um, so I guess we're starting with that and ending with that episode. Those bully thoughts always remind [00:23:00] me that I did not have a six pack. But that's okay. I was fast, 

Vanessa: but that's okay. Anything else that you wanna be remember for? 

Dr. Pete: Yeah. Something like, uh, so something more real?

Well, what I really connect with is just being genuine. I genuinely dislike people from time to time. You know, I genuinely love people's energy and connection. You know, I think just the interpersonal experiences that we have is just a beautiful gift.

I hear that a lot, like when I've had these installations into Hall of Fames, like, you know, people coming around, kind of talking about experiences and whatnot. I do hear that, that, that their experience with me is one of, you know, genuineness and, I hold that close to my heart to say, like, that's my value. And I do want to be remembered as somebody who, uh, was genuine. 

Vanessa: I wholeheartedly agree with that. And yes, that is you. I appreciate your humor and your energy and your friendship. So I really, really thank you for yelling at me when needed, and cheering me on when needed, and everything in between.

So thank you, thank you, thank you for [00:24:00] being you. We heard your podcast. We heard your new Zen Place. So tell us all the things. Where can people find you? 

Dr. Pete: Very simple, official, dr pete.com. So everything's there. Go to the website. It has all the, the books, the podcasts. I don't know if the Zen center's up there yet, but it might be. Who knows? It'll be there when it gets there. 

Vanessa: I love it. And I can't wait to visit. We have to make our next date for that. Hopefully not three years out. Thank you for taking time and energy and just gracing us with your presence and continue doing all the amazing things that you're doing in this world. 

Dr. Pete: You too. My pleasure. 

Vanessa: Thank you again to my friends Pete, Dr. Peter Economou, for just being amazing and sharing again of his energy, his story. And I love him because he really walks the talk and walks the walk. He really believes in what he does, and you heard him say he meditates 30 to 60 minutes every single day, which is just a beautiful thing to be able to do.

Now throughout the interview, you heard him say, you gotta keep the balance. [00:25:00] And yes, you do have to balance out life, but what I want you to remember is that we not just have plates that we spin on all the multiple hands that we have, but we have many balls. And some of the balls are made out of glass and some of the balls can bounce back. And when I hear the word balance, it's not like a seesaw per se, and keeping everything 50 50 and keeping the seesaw right in the middle because that's really hard.

But like a seesaw, if you played on them back in the day as a kid, things go up and things come down. And with those balls that we have in our hands, we wanna think about which are the glass balls that we cannot let fall, because then they will break. Then alternatively, which are the balls that if we do let fall, that they can bounce back?

And that is how I like to look at the important things that we have in our everyday lives and how we bring balance to that. Not holding all the balls at once, but knowing which ones can bounce back [00:26:00] and which ones we cannot allow to fall.

So for today's reflective meditation, I want you to think about times that perhaps you pushed yourself to a level of perfectionism. Or perhaps you pushed your child to do better, to want more, to try to infuse them with some motivation. And think where those pushes came from.

Is it just messaging that you received and that were passed down to you when you're passing them along?

Are they well-intentioned thoughts that are coming from a genuine place in your heart? Or are they coming from a place of comparison? Or living out a life that maybe you wish you had lived?

The most important thing here as you reflect on these questions is to try to let judgment go. Acknowledge and accept the thoughts that come up. Keep them if you want them. Or make some [00:27:00] changes if you don't.

If you have any parent friends or an Amiga mom who can benefit from listening to this episode, whether it be tips for their child who is a high performer, or tips for them, please make sure that you share this episode.

As always, thanks for tuning in and remember in a world where you're free to be anything you are, always free to be mindful.

Catch you next time.